Curse

Arturo02 · Sep 12, 2006, 09:55 AM // 09:55

"Unmodded meaning no Vampiric/whatever. The 15% mod and customization is what everybody should and will run."

no, unmodded means NO MODS. None. Adding them skews the results in the warrior's favor. If Ensign used mods, he did not disclose that he did, which would be a disservice to the study.

LightningHell · Sep 12, 2006, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

"Unmodded meaning no Vampiric/whatever. The 15% mod and customization is what everybody should and will run."

no, unmodded means NO MODS. None. Adding them skews the results in the warrior's favor. If Ensign used mods, he did not disclose that he did, which would be a disservice to the study.

Err, I'm not really understanding you. It's purely logical to carry a 15>50% mod at all times.

Arturo02 · Sep 12, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

the baseline of the study says an unmodded weapon.

Haven't you guys ever done comparative studies in school?

and ensign. nice comment. Coming from someone who is now learning dps is not the end all be all of pvp and is in a top pvp guild, I wouldn't be calling others morons. I knew that before I even bought the game geez.

What's next there, gonna wake up next week and go "wow pvp is about positioning"

u r funny. But let's stick to the argument at hand, not your ephipanies.

Master Fuhon · Sep 13, 2006, 01:11 AM // 01:11

I have to say, I was completely confused as to why the 15% mod shouldn't be considered the baseline. Both sides are suiting up for high damage, with Superior Runes and the respective +1 hats. Even a lazy warrior can get a 15% mod and customize it for 20%. Then just autoattack the dummy. It's like the spell spamming ele, except he has to make sure that he is casting every time. The question is asked: Is it worth dedicating the team effort to heal the damage dealer and to subdue the target to take most of the damage?

I think it must have more to do with the existence of +5 energy weapons, which turn out to be better suited for casters. Does anybody anywhere even use a weapon with nothing (no mods/no conditional/no customization)? Even noobs who spam "I'm wielding a Fiery Dragon Sword of Fortitude" are using the +15>50 and customization on their weapons. If it's maxed out element and cast rate, then its a maxed out weapon mastery, highest damage customized weapon, and autoattacks. A permanent Frenzy warrior could/should use the +15% while in stance weapon. A good warrior will even be capable of weapon switches (elemental/physical).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

the baseline of the study says an unmodded weapon.

Please stop confusing what a baseline is. A baseline is something that is used to compare apples to oranges, crazy people to when they are acting sane, and warriors to elementalists. You are tampering with the damage on the warrior, in the same way that you would be working with rotten apples and mildly retarted people. A warrior wouldn't be auto-attacking below 50% health in the same way that an elementalist wouldn't be spamming spells while under 50%. Both would be retreating back to their monks.

The only glaring error in that article was that Ensign did not use dual fast cast/recharge gear on the theoretical Orb/Strike and AoE the sh** out of things guy, to achieve even more unsustainable energy consumption. Those things really do make all the difference in this game for casters, if you don't desperately need the enchantment length increase. This was quickly corrected, and it has nothing to do with the flare caster. I guess the proper baseline for a caster would be just the staff mods. Even so, it's digging pretty far back to try to catch someone making a mistake. You're welcome to run tests, but hopefully they won't be skewed towards a certain outcome like the one you've been working on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

First off, I should apologize for the freaking out in one of these threads a few weeks back. I am much better at debating things that my earlier replies showed and I’m usually not as retarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

and ensign. nice comment. Coming from someone who is now learning dps is not the end all be all of pvp and is in a top pvp guild, I wouldn't be calling others morons. I knew that before I even bought the game geez.

Relapse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Err, I'm not really understanding you. It's purely logical to carry a 15>50% mod at all times.

Good luck with using logic as the basis of an argument on these forums. But I'll admit that even some of the worst players in this game would agree with you (without using logic, by not caring about damage) because these weapons cost the most money.

Pebbles · Sep 13, 2006, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Without outside support and locked in an enclosed space, an elementalist dies in about two minutes when facing down a warrior. Eventually the elementalist runs out of mana, his warrior hate slows down, and he dies - better elementalists would last longer in the duel. An elementalist cannot kill a warrior. Trying to do so merely accelerates the rate at which you die.

Peace,
-CxE

I see so many warriors like you in AB. They mouse over me and see an E/Mo and think "Soft target" Ironically I think the same thing when I mouse over a "W/Mo"

So of course the W/Mo runs towards me with there big ol hammer intent to smush my brains in. Before he even gets within striking distance he's already blinded and weakened. Smart warriors will either realize there not equiped to deal with this kind of condition dealing and run off or will get there monk support combined with there own condtion removal but in about 60% of cases the person on the other end ommited brains from there playing style.

And they swing and they miss and again and again. competely unphazed and ignoring by the 110 +110 + 66 Damage i'm ripping out of them. And very quickly there the ones crying.

And whats more with dual attunments and there lack of a condition removal I will be left with 70/75 energy and about 490/495hp at the end of a short 20 second dual.

LightningHell · Sep 13, 2006, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pebbles

I see so many warriors like you in AB. They mouse over me and see an E/Mo and think "Soft target" Ironically I think the same thing when I mouse over a "W/Mo"

So of course the W/Mo runs towards me with there big ol hammer intent to smush my brains in. Before he even gets within striking distance he's already blinded and weakened. Smart warriors will either realize there not equiped to deal with this kind of condition dealing and run off or will get there monk support combined with there own condtion removal but in about 60% of cases the person on the other end ommited brains from there playing style.

And they swing and they miss and again and again. competely unphazed and ignoring by the 110 +110 + 66 Damage i'm ripping out of them. And very quickly there the ones crying.

And whats more with dual attunments and there lack of a condition removal I will be left with 70/75 energy and about 490/495hp at the end of a short 20 second dual.

Ironically Ensign is a top Elementalist, from the top guild iQ. And AB is an absolutely horrible place to make any judgement of any class, from what I've heard.

And also, ironically, we are not talking about W/Mos, we are talking about W/Es who, incidentially, have a "monk" backing them. Yes, a "monk".

Edit: Arturo, if you say "unmodded", then it's unmodded. The Elementalist can carry two 20/20s for all I care.

Arturo02 · Sep 13, 2006, 10:08 AM // 10:08

"Relapse."

No it's called board pvp. Just two posters comparing epeen. *tussles Ensign's hair*

My numbers went by the experiment used in the study. It said the weapon was unmodded, not me. Look, in reality a ele isn't going to use flare either. Saying a warrior will use a unmodded weapon is the same thing. But, again, I was following the established baseline, no mods. Everything changes when other factors get put in.

And AI is notoriously easy. You don't even need a great build to succeed, just good teamwork and knowing what the AI will do. There really is no need to be uber efficent in pve because it's so beatable.

LightningHell · Sep 13, 2006, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

"Relapse."

No it's called board pvp. Just two posters comparing epeen. *tussles Ensign's hair*

My numbers went by the experiment used in the study. It said the weapon was unmodded, not me. Look, in reality a ele isn't going to use flare either. Saying a warrior will use a unmodded weapon is the same thing. But, again, I was following the established baseline, no mods. Everything changes when other factors get put in.

And AI is notoriously easy. You don't even need a great build to succeed, just good teamwork and knowing what the AI will do. There really is no need to be uber efficent in pve because it's so beatable.

Err...

Ensign actually used 20% customization and 15% conditional, if you still don't understand. Because that is the respected baseline for Warrior weapons. Of course, a Shock warrior has a +5e weapon for Shock, but that's just about it.

And where were we talking about AI?

Thom Bangalter · Sep 13, 2006, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

"Relapse."

No it's called board pvp. Just two posters comparing epeen. *tussles Ensign's hair*

My numbers went by the experiment used in the study. It said the weapon was unmodded, not me. Look, in reality a ele isn't going to use flare either. Saying a warrior will use a unmodded weapon is the same thing. But, again, I was following the established baseline, no mods. Everything changes when other factors get put in.

And AI is notoriously easy. You don't even need a great build to succeed, just good teamwork and knowing what the AI will do. There really is no need to be uber efficent in pve because it's so beatable.

Ensign's epeen is way bigger than anyone else that posts on this forum, I don't know why the comparison needs to exist.

and DPS is crap anyway. If DPS was good we'd all use cleave and penetrating blow on warriors with elemental weapons and conjure element enchantments.

Lord Mendes · Sep 13, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

This is probably the worst argument ever.
Arturo, right now you are saying that elementalists have a higher DPS than warriors, which is utter bullcrap and i dont need any of ur noob studies to prove me wrong. If you have ever PvPed seriously u will know how mistaken you are.

Plz explain why warriors are considered the main damage dealers in basic PvP (NOT AB!) and carry damage elites whereas eles generally have backup roles (spamming HPs, extinguishing, drawing, blinding, snaring etc...) and they only actually DO damage when assisting on spikes.

Ele is a diverse class, but when it comes to forming a team and u need a char with a high and reliable damage output, will you choose an ele?

joncoish · Sep 13, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

who cares?

Arturo02 · Sep 13, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

I'm not talking about pvp, that's where the AI part comes in. You know, that easy to beat pve where dps means nothing.

All I said was the study was flawed with it's baseline. And if Ensign used those mods why did his study say, and I quote "unmodded weapon". If he used the mods but said he didn't then the study is even more misleading.

All I am saying is if you do a study and base it on numbers that are no longer relevant or correct or flawed then you cannot use it as a basis for an argument.

My experiment was an exact copy of the testing ensign did as he stated in the study. It is not my fault the numbers are different today, it is not his. Again, just pointing out that maybe we shouldn't whip that study link out everytime there is a discussion about elementalists because it is no longer as valid as it was nine months ago.

Amok Affinity · Sep 13, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

how do people question the difference in damage output between eles and warriors?

an awful ele can kill a warrior that's even worse, sure, but they're still an awful ele for speccing to actually kill a single warrior... so if that's anyone's basis for refuting the damage argument then it's obviously beyond them to begin with...

Ensign · Sep 13, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

My numbers went by the experiment used in the study.

No, you did not, and you're making yourself look like an idiot by using completely unreasonable hyperbole. You're being a retard because you think I should have used the term 'un-upgraded' instead of 'unmodded'. Conceded, I should have used 'un-upgraded' to be just a touch less ambiguous for the .1% of people who are going to be grammar nazis. The rest of us understood intuitively that we weren't considering variables like Vampiric or Sundering or the other, regularly changing modifiers that most certainly are not baseline. But yes, because some people need everything spelled out perfectly for them with impeccable word selection, lest they fall into a pit of laughable, strictly literal hyperbole, I should have used 'un-upgraded'.

Can you *please* stop polluting this forum with drooling idiocy now? It is hard enough to have any sort of productive discussion of things that might actually be important when you're too busy muddling everything up to show that, yes, I might have used a word that could be ambiguous - if you read is strictly, at one point.

Peace,
-CxE

Arturo02 · Sep 14, 2006, 05:06 AM // 05:06

hmm I can't be an idiot if I am trying to replicate your test and not having all the factors that went into the testing. I am uninformed, yes but not an idiot. What were the mods you used so I can test it?

Sha Noran · Sep 14, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

No it's called board pvp. Just two posters comparing epeen. *tussles Ensign's hair*

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Anyway, there are a few problems with this argument, all coming down to the same thing: you're countering arguments with points that apply to completely different arguments.

Half the people: Warriors pwn eles in group situations over time.
The other half: I can make a build that pwns your Warrior 1v1!

First of all, any class can make a build to pwn any other class 1v1 if they know ahead of time what they're playing against. That's just a fact of Guild Wars. If you know the dude is going to use Rock, you use Paper.

Second of all, to remove Customization from a PVP based baseline comparison of damage is... really, really stupid. It is impossible to make a PvP character without Customized weapons. Beyond that... to do the test without a damage mod is just... not smart. It's common sense to have one and, as with Customization, it is impossible to avoid a base damage mod on your PvP weapon. What, should he also not use a max damage weapon? Come on now...

Third, you have one outstanding flaw in your DPS argument between Flare and an Axe Warrior (or any Warrior, actually), Arturo, and that is that the Warrior's effeciency increases as the battle goes on, while the Ele's deminishes. That's what they were hinting at when they said that over time, you lose. About the time you're hoping that e-management will recharge, the Warrior's Eviscerate is charged again.

Ensign · Sep 14, 2006, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

hmm I can't be an idiot if I am trying to replicate your test and not having all the factors that went into the testing. I am uninformed, yes but not an idiot. What were the mods you used so I can test it?

You've already been told the answer to that a half dozen times in this thread, and would already know the answer if you'd been paying any attention.

Peace,
-CxE

artay · Sep 14, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I doubt that. You'd probably not be able to kill the war, but the war can wear the ele down after a while...Shatterstorm takes care of your Attunement, and I can't see you spamming those spells without any energy management. Fine, 2 useless skills on me due to no hexes, but...eh, spamming Obsidian Flame isn't exactly the best way to kill someone. Stoning is 15e, Enervating Charge isn't exactly the best damage dealer ever (but you're not using it for damage anyway), and even when blind I'd just smash on you until you run out of energy. You might get the war to 1/2 health, but you'd never take him down.

Plus, you don't have snare, he can dodge. :P

lol, who said i was spamming obsid flame, envergating charge+ward against melee= little damage. Plus every warrior isnt exactly equipped especially to take down an ele, so in saying that an ele can never take down a warr is false.

artay · Sep 14, 2006, 10:29 AM // 10:29

lol infact, with the new update, mind freeze=gg to warrs

LightningHell · Sep 14, 2006, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by artay

lol, who said i was spamming obsid flame, envergating charge+ward against melee= little damage. Plus every warrior isnt exactly equipped especially to take down an ele, so in saying that an ele can never take down a warr is false.

Agreed that Mind Freeze is GG to wars for 6 seconds, but exhaustion does build up if you spam it.

Enervating Charge and Ward Against Melee would take quite a lot to maintain, if you were to keep it up constantly so as to make yourself "unkillable" - and, even with Weakness you do take some damage. You can't kill the war, and if you can't keep up the conditions forever, you'll die someday - even with the conditions applied indefinitely, the Warrior will kill you someday. Weakness only makes you hit softer, and 50% evasion isn't enough to last 10 minutes.